Sven Roeder
9:46 Sun Aug 6
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Fonte was a panic buy that we now repent at leisure.
I love Ginge but we don't need TWO ancient centre backs.
Our lack of pace in that area is alarming. No?
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Sven Roeder
9:49 Sun Aug 6
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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I thought it would be pretty obvious that the Fonte/Collins part of the comment was related to Burke.
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mallard
9:49 Sun Aug 6
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Pagey 9:01 Sun Aug 6
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
They're probably there because they look totally comfortable at that level.
Ag! Ag!
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Cornish Dave
12:21 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Watched the game, thought Cullen looked tidy enough but did not do anything special. I thought Burke was better than the guy he replaced and seemed very comfortable at the back. As has been said they have only just arrived there so time will tell.
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Pub Bigot
2:00 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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I didn't see the game, but I checked live score and Burke replaced Bolton captain, David Wheater. One a Premier League player with Middlesbrough.
I really hope these two do the business up there and force their way into appearances for the first team.
For those have watched them all, what has Rice got that Burke/Oxford don't?
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Alex V
2:16 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Rice may have more potential, I'm not sure, he's certainly younger. But currently I would say Burke and Cullen are better than him in their respective positions. Both would be absolutely fine in a Premiership squad at this stage.
My guess is that it all runs on reputation and the limitations of the coaches. Once you've been out on loan you're already damaged goods as you've been evaluated 'not ready' which in most minds means 'not good enough'. Usually that initial evaluation comes out of fear or ignorance of even sheer laziness - coaches would rather loan out a player than be challenged to actually develop them. So they hope some lower club with less resources and presumably worse staff will somehow have better expertise to improve them - a bizarre and rather irrational hope.
Whereas Rice has trained with the senior team for a while now and is learning from them, and probably has the trust and friendship of the senior players around him, and the coaches have had him around long enough to notice him and know what he can do. He has a genuine chance of actually coming on off the bench or even starting the odd game. Unlike the loanees where the club see them for a week or two in pre-season then ship them out on loan. Once you get on that loan treadmill very few players ever recover at the senior club.
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,
2:24 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex, if both Burke and Cullen would not be out of place in a PL squad why have no other PL teams sought to borrow them?
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Alex V
2:35 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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>>> Alex, if both Burke and Cullen would not be out of place in a PL squad why have no other PL teams sought to borrow them?
Because no doubt other prem outfits have their own youths in similar positions - they don't need to loan somebody elses.
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Pagey
2:42 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Harry Kane went on loan to a few different teams and I don't think it did him much harm.
Jermain Defoe went to Bournemouth on loan and it did him the world of good too.
In fact there are so many examples of young players going on loan and learning their trade whilst getting regular football. They also grow up faster away from home nad can focus on the football and being independent.
The Premier League has changed and it's all about instant success these days. That's why any manager taking a chance on youth will probably be out of a job six months later if it backfired. Unless the young player in question is of an exceptional talent like Dele Alli or similar. Which Cullen and Burke aren't, no matter how bias you want to be.
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Dr Moose
2:43 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Please tell me we're not going to get a report on every Bolton game this season?
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Sir Alf
2:44 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Bolton fans thought Cullen performed well and Burke given that they arrived a few days before the game. That is based on a Twatter feed mind so perhaps not representative.
I think Cullen could step up and Burke but the club and manager takes the path of least resistance and prefers to loan them out than have unsettled and disruptive senior professionals not getting a game?
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Alex V
2:54 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Pagey 2:42 Mon Aug 7
Kane is a very notable exception that always comes up - there are a handful each year. I do think it's slightly different for strikers - if Defoe goes and breaks a scoring record on loan the parent club can hardly ignore that (and he was already a very high profile player at that stage).
>>> ...any manager taking a chance on youth will probably be out of a job six months later if it backfired.
This is absolutely true. And you can see it at a lot of clubs. There are some exceptions that are widely noted - Spurs, Southampton, Everton. Though even with them I see they aren't willing to push the policy past a certain point. Players like Onomah, Galloway, Reed are undoubtedly better players than Burke and Cullen and are currently farmed out to the same division.
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Sven Roeder
3:12 Mon Aug 7
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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I heard they got shipped out because they sniggered when Bilic's granddad got ready to take the fitness sessions by changing into his Helsinki 1952 Long jump squad tshirt and a greying old jockstrap.
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ludo21
11:38 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V "Once you've been out on loan you're already damaged goods as you've been evaluated 'not ready"
What a load of bollocks..... Burke was player of the season at Bradford during his loan spell. Are you saying that didn't enhance his reputation???
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Alex V
12:44 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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The same Burke who is now behind Rice in the pecking order, and out on loan again?
It doesn't matter to anyone at West Ham what he did at Bradford. He did fine for us in the Premiership two and a half years ago - what does he need to prove in the lower leagues?
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ludo21
12:58 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Maybe Rice is a better player than Burke (not saying he is but possible).
Maybe Rice will go out on loan in a couple of weeks.
Maybe Burke and Rice will be our first choice CB pairing in 2-3 years.
Who knows?
Just saying that your sweeping statement that being a loanee was tantamount to being deemed not good enough was rubbish.
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Alex V
1:43 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Yep, maybes about Rice - I'm not sure about him yet. I don't need to be sure about Burke, because he's done it and was fine. He should be in the squad imo. I don't think Bilic is much of a judge of players.
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ludo21
1:47 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Happy to agree about Burke.... hopefully he will be a success at Bolton and come back in January.
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Rossal
1:57 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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But Burke wouldnt be guaranteed game time here. Ogbonna and Reid are better then him
He will play every week at Bolton which will make hiim a better player
Some of the stuff you come out with Alex is just ridiculous
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Alex V
2:14 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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>>> But Burke wouldnt be guaranteed game time here. Ogbonna and Reid are better then him
But he could contribute in a squad, and he would be training with better players and (theoretically) better coaches. He could enable one of Fonte or Collins to leave, saving the club money. His value would go up - maybe he saves us the millions we'd spend on the next senior mercenary. Either way the club would have a better idea of how good he was going to be and how he fares in the prem, or take a nice profit. Other young players would understand that there's an established route to the first team.
>>> He will play every week at Bolton which will make hiim a better player
Playing at Bolton always makes players better? He might learn how to clump the ball out in a struggling side in a lower league - is that the sort of better player we want? Of course he might improve there, but he might improve on our training pitch learning from better players than David Wheater. It's the lazy assumption that it will automatically be better for him that I question.
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Side of Ham
2:25 Tue Aug 8
Re: Bolton v Leeds United (Cullen & Burke)
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Alex V states all his shit without the consideration Burke may be the one asking to take this route and feels getting regular playing time will progress him quicker than hanging around a squad in the hope of being thrown in the deep end.
Young players do get given a view point and a choice Alex, otherwise they plan for a move where they will get that.
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